1
00:00:00,921 --> 00:00:03,171
SALMAN RUSHDIE: A
novel is written well

2
00:00:03,171 --> 00:00:06,591
if the author is really
looking at themselves

3
00:00:06,591 --> 00:00:08,571
and what they're trying
to do and becoming

4
00:00:08,571 --> 00:00:11,931
very clear about it
and saying, OK, here's

5
00:00:11,931 --> 00:00:13,681
what I'm trying to achieve.

6
00:00:13,681 --> 00:00:15,801
And this is what I
need to do in order

7
00:00:15,801 --> 00:00:18,651
to get there, to set
yourself the boundaries,

8
00:00:18,651 --> 00:00:21,714
set yourself the shape,
and then stick to it.

9
00:00:21,714 --> 00:00:24,179
[MUSIC PLAYING]

10
00:00:35,051 --> 00:00:40,781
When you're trying
to compose a novel,

11
00:00:40,781 --> 00:00:47,531
it's very often helpful to
know where to hang your hat,

12
00:00:47,531 --> 00:00:49,331
so to speak.

13
00:00:49,331 --> 00:00:55,461
If you don't have some
kind of edifice built

14
00:00:55,461 --> 00:01:00,021
of a story and a plot, some
kind of structural element,

15
00:01:00,021 --> 00:01:00,791
of a story and a plot, some
kind of structural element,

16
00:01:00,791 --> 00:01:04,230
it goes like this,
then it can be

17
00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:07,531
very hard to know how to
begin to flesh things out.

18
00:01:07,531 --> 00:01:09,571
The plot and structure
are like the skeleton.

19
00:01:09,571 --> 00:01:12,031
And the characters and
events are the flesh

20
00:01:12,031 --> 00:01:13,171
you put on that skeleton.

21
00:01:13,171 --> 00:01:16,501
There are writers who have
always needed that skeleton

22
00:01:16,501 --> 00:01:19,051
to be very detailed.

23
00:01:19,051 --> 00:01:21,601
I mean, according to
legend, Scott Fitzgerald

24
00:01:21,601 --> 00:01:27,091
was the writer of that kind,
who really worked things out

25
00:01:27,091 --> 00:01:30,021
very carefully before writing.

26
00:01:30,021 --> 00:01:33,141
very carefully before writing.

27
00:01:33,141 --> 00:01:36,401
And there are other writers
who kind of wing it more.

28
00:01:36,401 --> 00:01:40,711
And you have to find
out which one you

29
00:01:40,711 --> 00:01:45,841
are because the only rule,
really, is whatever works.

30
00:01:45,841 --> 00:01:47,311
That's the rule.

31
00:01:47,311 --> 00:01:52,668
The advantage of structure is
that you know what you're doing

32
00:01:52,668 --> 00:01:54,001
and you know where you're going.

33
00:01:54,001 --> 00:01:56,371
In a novel like "Midnight's
Children," where

34
00:01:56,371 --> 00:02:00,021
the actions of the characters
are linked quite closely

35
00:02:00,021 --> 00:02:02,371
the actions of the characters
are linked quite closely

36
00:02:02,371 --> 00:02:06,991
to historical events,
I needed that plot

37
00:02:06,991 --> 00:02:11,611
because I needed to be able to
map the lives of the characters

38
00:02:11,611 --> 00:02:14,581
onto the history of the
country so that they

39
00:02:14,581 --> 00:02:16,201
coincided at the right points.

40
00:02:16,201 --> 00:02:17,791
And if I didn't
do that, the book

41
00:02:17,791 --> 00:02:20,891
would have been
unbelievably messy.

42
00:02:20,891 --> 00:02:24,346
So it desperately needed
that kind of architecture.

43
00:02:24,346 --> 00:02:26,537
[MUSIC PLAYING]

44
00:02:30,291 --> 00:02:33,411
When people are writing
toward film writing,

45
00:02:33,411 --> 00:02:36,531
there's all this stuff
about three act structure

46
00:02:36,531 --> 00:02:42,531
and exactly how you must
allow a story to unfold.

47
00:02:46,181 --> 00:02:49,991
My view is it's all nonsense.

48
00:02:49,991 --> 00:02:53,111
Many of the very
greatest films I've seen

49
00:02:53,111 --> 00:02:55,271
have nothing to do with
three act structure.

50
00:02:55,271 --> 00:02:58,121
If you look at the great
cinema of the French New Wave

51
00:02:58,121 --> 00:02:58,811
or the Italian--

52
00:02:58,811 --> 00:03:00,021
if you look at film directors
like Visconti or to Truffaut

53
00:03:00,021 --> 00:03:02,751
if you look at film directors
like Visconti or to Truffaut

54
00:03:02,751 --> 00:03:03,561
or Godard or--

55
00:03:06,211 --> 00:03:10,731
you can't look at their work
using that kind of a grid.

56
00:03:10,731 --> 00:03:14,971
If it helps you to
think I need to have

57
00:03:14,971 --> 00:03:19,051
a beginning, a middle, and an
end, three acts, then fine,

58
00:03:19,051 --> 00:03:20,251
do that.

59
00:03:20,251 --> 00:03:23,271
But it's but it's
not compulsory.

60
00:03:23,271 --> 00:03:28,291
And in a book, it's even less
compulsory than in a movie

61
00:03:28,291 --> 00:03:30,021
because a book can
be a single moment.

62
00:03:30,021 --> 00:03:34,506
because a book can
be a single moment.

63
00:03:34,506 --> 00:03:38,301
It can exist in a
very single moment.

64
00:03:38,301 --> 00:03:40,161
To talk about Joyce's
"Ulysses," all there

65
00:03:40,161 --> 00:03:44,601
is there is one day in
the life of one man.

66
00:03:44,601 --> 00:03:46,461
So yeah, I mean it's
an idea-- the three act

67
00:03:46,461 --> 00:03:48,351
structure, for example,
is an idea you can use.

68
00:03:48,351 --> 00:03:49,221
I mean, it's usable.

69
00:03:49,221 --> 00:03:51,951
You know, it works.

70
00:03:51,951 --> 00:03:53,691
But it's only one idea.

71
00:03:53,691 --> 00:04:00,021
And my view is that the
story will tell you.

72
00:04:00,021 --> 00:04:00,771
And my view is that the
story will tell you.

73
00:04:00,771 --> 00:04:02,691
If you listen
carefully to the story,

74
00:04:02,691 --> 00:04:05,031
the story will tell you
what it needs to be.

75
00:04:05,031 --> 00:04:08,541
Sometimes you don't start
at the beginning, you know?

76
00:04:08,541 --> 00:04:10,491
And sometimes you
start in the middle.

77
00:04:10,491 --> 00:04:12,831
And then we've all
now become very used

78
00:04:12,831 --> 00:04:14,331
to the idea of the flashback.

79
00:04:14,331 --> 00:04:17,751
You know, once upon a
time the flashback felt

80
00:04:17,751 --> 00:04:20,721
strange to the reader, you know?

81
00:04:20,721 --> 00:04:23,971
Now it feels everyday.

82
00:04:23,971 --> 00:04:27,641
So it may be that
you want to start

83
00:04:27,641 --> 00:04:30,021
at a dramatic moment in the
middle of somebody's life

84
00:04:30,021 --> 00:04:33,091
at a dramatic moment in the
middle of somebody's life

85
00:04:33,091 --> 00:04:37,201
in order to immediately
engage you with the character

86
00:04:37,201 --> 00:04:41,441
and what is happening to
them and then tell you

87
00:04:41,441 --> 00:04:42,663
how they got there.

88
00:04:42,663 --> 00:04:44,871
A story has to have a
beginning, a middle, and an end

89
00:04:44,871 --> 00:04:48,551
but not necessarily
in that order.

90
00:04:48,551 --> 00:04:56,251
So the novel is an enormously
fluid form, you know?

91
00:04:56,251 --> 00:05:00,021
It really can be
anything you make it,

92
00:05:00,021 --> 00:05:01,081
It really can be
anything you make it,

93
00:05:01,081 --> 00:05:04,891
as long as you understand that
it can't be random, you know?

94
00:05:04,891 --> 00:05:08,251
It can't just be one
damn thing after another.

95
00:05:08,251 --> 00:05:10,576
[MUSIC PLAYING]

96
00:05:14,761 --> 00:05:19,001
A lot of the development
work of a book,

97
00:05:19,001 --> 00:05:23,131
a lot of the the the
preliminary thinking

98
00:05:23,131 --> 00:05:24,841
is exactly about
who's doing what

99
00:05:24,841 --> 00:05:28,801
to whom, which people
are kind to other people

100
00:05:28,801 --> 00:05:30,021
and who's unkind, who is
trying to get something out

101
00:05:30,021 --> 00:05:31,831
and who's unkind, who is
trying to get something out

102
00:05:31,831 --> 00:05:36,421
of somebody else, who is
more generous, you know,

103
00:05:36,421 --> 00:05:41,701
who's going to shoot somebody,
who's left standing at the end.

104
00:05:41,701 --> 00:05:46,481
I sometimes think in my
book, too many characters

105
00:05:46,481 --> 00:05:48,591
don't make it to the end.

106
00:05:48,591 --> 00:05:51,431
I sometimes think it's, you
know, kind of a tough fate

107
00:05:51,431 --> 00:05:55,401
to be in a Salman Rushdie novel
because you get beaten up,

108
00:05:55,401 --> 00:05:56,691
and then you die.

109
00:05:56,691 --> 00:06:00,021
The question of how the
characters' destinies are

110
00:06:00,021 --> 00:06:02,111
The question of how the
characters' destinies are

111
00:06:02,111 --> 00:06:06,461
connected to each other,
again, is different depending

112
00:06:06,461 --> 00:06:09,761
on the scale of the novel.

113
00:06:09,761 --> 00:06:11,971
If you're writing,
you know, like,

114
00:06:11,971 --> 00:06:16,891
a big epic or comic
epic or anti-epic,

115
00:06:16,891 --> 00:06:23,571
a big book with a large
cast and a number of scenes

116
00:06:23,571 --> 00:06:26,121
and sometimes happening
over a long period of time,

117
00:06:26,121 --> 00:06:29,271
you know, then in many
cases, the destinies

118
00:06:29,271 --> 00:06:30,021
of individual characters will
not connect to each other.

119
00:06:30,021 --> 00:06:33,691
of individual characters will
not connect to each other.

120
00:06:33,691 --> 00:06:36,061
When the novel has
a smaller frame,

121
00:06:36,061 --> 00:06:37,561
then the destinies
of the characters

122
00:06:37,561 --> 00:06:39,591
are absolutely interlocked.

123
00:06:39,591 --> 00:06:43,781
And what happens
to one affects all.

124
00:06:43,781 --> 00:06:48,021
For example, in a
multigenerational novel,

125
00:06:48,021 --> 00:06:52,341
say Thomas Mann's
"Buddenbrooks," for example,

126
00:06:52,341 --> 00:06:57,681
several generations in the life
of a family, a merchant family.

127
00:06:57,681 --> 00:06:59,601
And essentially, what
happens in the novel

128
00:06:59,601 --> 00:07:00,021
is that the family declines,
generation by generation.

129
00:07:00,021 --> 00:07:04,581
is that the family declines,
generation by generation.

130
00:07:04,581 --> 00:07:08,781
Each generation is less than
the generation that preceded it.

131
00:07:08,781 --> 00:07:11,841
So when you read it, you
have the old patriarch

132
00:07:11,841 --> 00:07:15,691
who is, you know, powerful
and successful and so on.

133
00:07:15,691 --> 00:07:21,561
And as you get through to the
sons and grandsons and so on,

134
00:07:21,561 --> 00:07:22,401
they become weaker.

135
00:07:22,401 --> 00:07:25,811
But their weakness and
strength is relative, you know?

136
00:07:25,811 --> 00:07:28,311
They're relative to their
father and their grandfather.

137
00:07:28,311 --> 00:07:30,021
So even though they have their
own stories which are not

138
00:07:30,021 --> 00:07:33,021
So even though they have their
own stories which are not

139
00:07:33,021 --> 00:07:35,301
influenced by the
earlier generations,

140
00:07:35,301 --> 00:07:37,761
the novel is saying
to us, this is a novel

141
00:07:37,761 --> 00:07:39,931
about the decay of a family.

142
00:07:39,931 --> 00:07:45,831
So of course, you want
to feel as the author,

143
00:07:45,831 --> 00:07:48,861
and your readers
will want to feel,

144
00:07:48,861 --> 00:07:51,861
that the book has a
strong cohesion, you know,

145
00:07:51,861 --> 00:07:56,481
and that it is in the
shape it's in because that

146
00:07:56,481 --> 00:07:58,161
is the necessary shape.

147
00:07:58,161 --> 00:08:00,021
And the way you feel
that as a reader is

148
00:08:00,021 --> 00:08:01,971
And the way you feel
that as a reader is

149
00:08:01,971 --> 00:08:04,941
to feel that the
characters are very

150
00:08:04,941 --> 00:08:09,051
integrated with each other and
that everything that happens

151
00:08:09,051 --> 00:08:12,201
to each character is
significant not only

152
00:08:12,201 --> 00:08:14,546
in that character's
life but in the lives

153
00:08:14,546 --> 00:08:15,546
of the other characters.

154
00:08:15,546 --> 00:08:17,795
[MUSIC PLAYING]

155
00:08:22,221 --> 00:08:25,821
Mirroring is a
very useful device,

156
00:08:25,821 --> 00:08:29,281
where something
happening over here

157
00:08:29,281 --> 00:08:30,021
is like something
happening over here.

158
00:08:30,021 --> 00:08:32,070
is like something
happening over here.

159
00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:34,981
And the reader sees
that and connects them.

160
00:08:34,981 --> 00:08:38,721
What is best is if it's
not exactly the same.

161
00:08:38,721 --> 00:08:42,401
If it's exactly the
same, it's too artificial

162
00:08:42,401 --> 00:08:44,811
and will be seen as artificial.

163
00:08:44,811 --> 00:08:46,701
But if there's a
relationship, if there's

164
00:08:46,701 --> 00:08:51,011
over here a mother
and daughter having

165
00:08:51,011 --> 00:08:53,851
a certain kind of
bad relationship

166
00:08:53,851 --> 00:08:57,174
and over here in another place
or another generation there's

167
00:08:57,174 --> 00:08:58,591
another mother and
daughter having

168
00:08:58,591 --> 00:09:00,008
a difficult
relationship-- doesn't

169
00:09:00,008 --> 00:09:00,021
have to be the same difficulty.

170
00:09:00,021 --> 00:09:01,591
have to be the same difficulty.

171
00:09:01,591 --> 00:09:04,121
It doesn't have to
come out the same way.

172
00:09:04,121 --> 00:09:06,431
But the reader
will say, oh, yeah,

173
00:09:06,431 --> 00:09:08,981
this thing is like that thing.

174
00:09:08,981 --> 00:09:13,211
And it helps the reader to grasp
the larger form of the novel.

175
00:09:13,211 --> 00:09:16,481
So those things, echoes
and mirrors, you know,

176
00:09:16,481 --> 00:09:20,366
are useful devices to create
the sense of structure.

177
00:09:20,366 --> 00:09:22,643
[MUSIC PLAYING]

178
00:09:27,131 --> 00:09:29,651
I think most people
who write books

179
00:09:29,651 --> 00:09:30,021
have some little germ of
something inside of them

180
00:09:30,021 --> 00:09:36,431
have some little germ of
something inside of them

181
00:09:36,431 --> 00:09:38,231
that they need to get out.

182
00:09:38,231 --> 00:09:41,401
There's usually some
little thing eating at you

183
00:09:41,401 --> 00:09:43,121
that you need to express.

184
00:09:43,121 --> 00:09:45,311
And so how do you do that?

185
00:09:45,311 --> 00:09:47,301
I mean, there's a
number of answers.

186
00:09:47,301 --> 00:09:50,021
One answer is trial
and error, you know?

187
00:09:50,021 --> 00:09:52,721
I mean, I certainly
had the experience

188
00:09:52,721 --> 00:09:55,371
of many false starts, you know?

189
00:09:55,371 --> 00:10:00,021
And I find that actually
beginning a piece of writing

190
00:10:00,021 --> 00:10:02,251
And I find that actually
beginning a piece of writing

191
00:10:02,251 --> 00:10:04,951
is a question of finding
the right entry point.

192
00:10:04,951 --> 00:10:08,541
Some of the doors you go through
will just lead to a dead end.

193
00:10:08,541 --> 00:10:12,186
And other doors will open
out into an attractive space,

194
00:10:12,186 --> 00:10:14,631
a space you want
to be in, you know?

195
00:10:14,631 --> 00:10:17,151
So which slice through
the world do you take?

196
00:10:17,151 --> 00:10:24,751
You know, I mean, I very often,
even now, have like nine, 10,

197
00:10:24,751 --> 00:10:27,471
11, 12 attempts at
finding that door

198
00:10:27,471 --> 00:10:30,021
to go through before I know
that I've found the one that

199
00:10:30,021 --> 00:10:32,571
to go through before I know
that I've found the one that

200
00:10:32,571 --> 00:10:33,731
leads me through the story.

201
00:10:33,731 --> 00:10:36,191
[MUSIC PLAYING]

202
00:10:40,621 --> 00:10:43,851
We're looking here at
some of the work notes

203
00:10:43,851 --> 00:10:48,921
that I made during the five-year
process of writing "The Satanic

204
00:10:48,921 --> 00:10:50,181
Verses."

205
00:10:50,181 --> 00:10:56,831
And then they're notes
which, in many cases,

206
00:10:56,831 --> 00:11:00,021
don't bear a direct relationship
to the finished book.

207
00:11:00,021 --> 00:11:01,051
don't bear a direct relationship
to the finished book.

208
00:11:01,051 --> 00:11:05,821
But they are part of
the thinking process

209
00:11:05,821 --> 00:11:09,991
that I went through in order to
arrive at the way the finished

210
00:11:09,991 --> 00:11:11,501
book actually looks.

211
00:11:11,501 --> 00:11:16,911
What I was doing, trying
to kind of wrestle

212
00:11:16,911 --> 00:11:20,361
this quite long and
complicated book to the ground,

213
00:11:20,361 --> 00:11:24,201
was I would kind of talk
to myself on my typewriter.

214
00:11:24,201 --> 00:11:28,501
I would ask myself questions
about the characters and about

215
00:11:28,501 --> 00:11:29,041
the themes.

216
00:11:29,041 --> 00:11:30,021
And I would try and answer them.

217
00:11:30,021 --> 00:11:31,191
And I would try and answer them.

218
00:11:31,191 --> 00:11:34,171
So on this page,
amongst other things

219
00:11:34,171 --> 00:11:37,181
I was asking about,
I asked myself,

220
00:11:37,181 --> 00:11:39,341
what is Gibreel Farishta's fate?

221
00:11:39,341 --> 00:11:44,351
And I answered in a way that is
actually not true of the novel

222
00:11:44,351 --> 00:11:45,341
that I finally wrote.

223
00:11:45,341 --> 00:11:47,051
I mean, it's a kind of sketch.

224
00:11:47,051 --> 00:11:50,951
To be mad with jealousy
when sane, to be denied God

225
00:11:50,951 --> 00:11:53,501
and therefore to be like
a bull in a China shop

226
00:11:53,501 --> 00:11:56,381
when possessed of his angelness.

227
00:11:56,381 --> 00:11:59,131
Well, I mean,
something like that

228
00:11:59,131 --> 00:12:00,021
happens in the novel
but not exactly that.

229
00:12:00,021 --> 00:12:00,961
happens in the novel
but not exactly that.

230
00:12:00,961 --> 00:12:04,051
You know, so I'm
seeing these now

231
00:12:04,051 --> 00:12:07,441
for the first time
in a very long time.

232
00:12:07,441 --> 00:12:13,995
And it surprises me in many
ways how many of these notes

233
00:12:13,995 --> 00:12:18,281
are some distance away from the
book as it finally took shape.

234
00:12:18,281 --> 00:12:21,441
Structurally, the
book has a number

235
00:12:21,441 --> 00:12:22,851
of intertwined narratives.

236
00:12:22,851 --> 00:12:29,451
And in the beginning,
I wasn't even sure

237
00:12:29,451 --> 00:12:30,021
if I was thinking
about one book.

238
00:12:30,021 --> 00:12:31,991
if I was thinking
about one book.

239
00:12:31,991 --> 00:12:33,861
There was a moment at
which I thought these

240
00:12:33,861 --> 00:12:36,201
might be three separate books.

241
00:12:36,201 --> 00:12:41,861
There might be a book about
Indian immigrants in London.

242
00:12:41,861 --> 00:12:44,911
And there might be
another, more kind

243
00:12:44,911 --> 00:12:52,783
of visionary book about
these angel-devil nightmares,

244
00:12:52,783 --> 00:12:53,366
these visions.

245
00:12:56,871 --> 00:12:58,881
And eventually, I
began to understand

246
00:12:58,881 --> 00:13:00,021
how the stories sat together and
how they kind of communicated

247
00:13:00,021 --> 00:13:05,434
how the stories sat together and
how they kind of communicated

248
00:13:05,434 --> 00:13:06,101
with each other.

249
00:13:06,101 --> 00:13:09,091
But that was a long process.

250
00:13:09,091 --> 00:13:12,601
trying to understand how
the structure of the book

251
00:13:12,601 --> 00:13:13,351
was going to work.

252
00:13:13,351 --> 00:13:16,441
And a lot of this
material here is just

253
00:13:16,441 --> 00:13:20,761
me trying to get
to grips with that.

254
00:13:20,761 --> 00:13:24,031
I think, you know,
looking at this again,

255
00:13:24,031 --> 00:13:30,021
the thing it shows me is that
one of the ways in which I

256
00:13:30,021 --> 00:13:31,481
the thing it shows me is that
one of the ways in which I

257
00:13:31,481 --> 00:13:32,771
have approached writing--

258
00:13:32,771 --> 00:13:34,001
I mean, this is, you know--

259
00:13:34,001 --> 00:13:37,361
I mean, "The Satanic
Verses" came out in 1988.

260
00:13:37,361 --> 00:13:40,851
I started writing it
five years before that.

261
00:13:40,851 --> 00:13:41,861
So this stuff is--

262
00:13:41,861 --> 00:13:44,901
I wrote this a long time ago.

263
00:13:44,901 --> 00:13:48,201
But it's clear that one of the
processes I had-- and I mean,

264
00:13:48,201 --> 00:13:52,311
to some degree I still have,
is to talk to myself, you know,

265
00:13:52,311 --> 00:13:55,791
is to interrogate
myself, say, look,

266
00:13:55,791 --> 00:13:57,171
what do you think about this?

267
00:13:57,171 --> 00:14:00,021
Or what you are
trying to write makes

268
00:14:00,021 --> 00:14:01,041
Or what you are
trying to write makes

269
00:14:01,041 --> 00:14:03,961
me think of the following,
and how does that work?

270
00:14:03,961 --> 00:14:06,301
And I would try
all sorts of things

271
00:14:06,301 --> 00:14:08,041
to answer that, you know?

272
00:14:08,041 --> 00:14:12,241
These notes here are
a part of the process

273
00:14:12,241 --> 00:14:13,441
of getting to grips with it.

274
00:14:13,441 --> 00:14:17,081
But they're not-- I mean, this
is not the end product at all.

275
00:14:17,081 --> 00:14:18,571
These are steps on the way.

276
00:14:18,571 --> 00:14:21,021
[MUSIC PLAYING]